My misconception dispelled....

[Chad]

I posted this on RWL but I wanted to post it here too because I've learned many things from reading the posts here and wanted to share my thoughts too.

Well... I've been operating under a misconception. I have been researching russia, and the possibility of romance there since trip I took there in '97. Over the years, I came to believe that russian women were looking for husbands abroad for a couple of general reasons. Now I've seen people get flamed off the board like a russian rocket heading to space, so let me say these comments are 'generalizations', have the maturity to take them for what they are worth. When I began, I thought russian women were looking for a better way of life, a 'ticket' to the USA and using marriage to a foreign man was a simple way to do it. There was a part of me that had respect for their willingness to take that approach, but not the part where integrity lives.

[Tom]

Lies, Damned lies, and Statistics!!

Hi Chad,

Seriously, from all the research I have done, I have essentially come to the the same conclusions. Maybe different in some details, but essentially the same.

But male/female ratios, I might add something from my personal experience.

I have attended two Universities; The University of Florida (UF) and Florida State University (FSU).
UF was traditionally the "Men's" university in Florida and still has more men than women in attendance. The ratio of Men to Women, when I was there, was about 51/49, if I recall correctly.
FSU was traditionally the "women's" university and still has more women than men. The ratio of men to women there is about 48/ 52.
Those do not seem like very large differences, but the difference seemed like night and day. At UF, it seemed like there were no single women available. And I hate to admit that it seemed as though I had very little luck with women when I was there. But when I was at FSU, I couldn't beat them off with a stick! Of course I was also older and wiser by then, and possibly more attractive to them.
But I think that a small difference in percentages equates to a very large difference in the ability to find 'Single' individuals.
And according to the statistis that you sighted, the male female ratio in Russia/Ukraine would be 48/52. That's about the same as FSU (what a coincidence: FSU (Florida State U.) and FSU (Former Soviet Union) both have similar male/female ratios!) And if the FSU (Former Soviet Union) is anything like FSU (Florida State U.), then there are many single women and few single men.
Of course, this is based on my subjective experience, not objective research!

Tom

[katya]

</span><span =''>
Hi , Tom! I

[Chad]

That's a very good point Katya. Foreign women that are here in the US certainly have an additional attractiveness. I've seen foreign men here too, from italy, from Denmark, from many european countries and they have done well with the local women, even if they are not actually good men. I think that exotic feature is defenitely an aphrodisiac.

I had not really thought about that before, too much. But I guess it's true, that when I am in Ukraine or other foreign land, I have that extra advantage over the local men. Though I'm sure there are some women that hate foreigners too, but on the majority I'm sure it becomes attractive. There's that old joike... "How was your trip?" "It was great, but wow, there were so many foreigners.". I guess we have to remember, *we're* the foreigners. http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Chad

[Tom]

</span>[quote=Tom,Jan. 18 2003,20:48]
Hi ,

[liam]

g'day tom,

i can assure you, england's in europe http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

though its a very contentious point for a huge amount of nationalists back home

cheers liam

[Chad]

Unfortunately Tom your comments are still tainted like everybody else who has ever tried to 'guess' at the actual ratios. Your comment on Florida State U. are still your impression, and your guess as to the actual ratio. My original intent of this post was that I had found factual numbers I could finally base my impressions on. I'm sorry but I can only put your post in the same category as millions of other messages I've read where people say that 'feel' it's a certain way. That's how the numbers got so out of hand in the first place and many people started saying 5 or 6 women to every man. The actual facts simply don't support it.

I do understand the point you are trying to make, that even with 10 men and 11 women in a room, there's going to be even a great number than just 1 extra women when you apply it to millions or even thousands. That was part of my original post. I just think it's more realistic to see that the numbers are very similar to america and the point that I was trying to demonstrate is that these women are not 'hard-up' or desperate for men, anymore than the women you would meet in your own town are. Katya made a good point though, that being a foreigner, we have a slight advantage because foreign means exotic and that's very attractive and interesting to many women. It still won't overcome other attributes like being disrespectful or an abusive alcoholic, but it is an advantage nonetheless.

Chad

[Tom]

</span>Unfortunately Tom your comments are still tainted like everybody else who has ever tried to 'guess' at the actual ratios. Your comment on Florida State U. are still your impression, and your guess as to the actual ratio. My original intent of this post was that I had found factual numbers I could finally base my impressions on. I'm sorry but I can only put your post in the same category as millions of other messages I've read where people say that 'feel' it's a certain way. That's how the numbers got so out of hand in the first place and many people started saying 5 or 6 women to every man. The actual facts simply don't support it.<span =''>
Huh?
'Tainted comments' and 'guess as to the actual ratio' ?

The 48/52 ratio for Russia-Ukraine was calculated from the statistics that YOU cited.

Don't care about the statistics I am not counting beans. What I do care about is that the one Russian Lady I know is exactly that. A Lady! That gentelmen is what I am looking for and we are loseing in the US. Currantly planning a trip to the Ukraine in Sep. Hope I don't act like a one-eyed cat in a fish market.

[liam]

g'day chad,

though state that you could'nt care less about what people say about your opinion, the style, syntax and manner that you write in, points with a big fat giant finger to someone who does. Are you a wanna-be phd student?, cos if you are stop!!!, you haven't got an ORIGINAL thought in your head. Failing that get yourself a decent text-book about forensic psychology, the sort of person you appear to be will be classified along with personality types that manifest in serial-killer type behaviour. true mate, i'm not gonna explain the various diagnostic characteristics of anti-social personalities here but look them up and be honest. am i wrong?. liam

[Chad]

Wow, where did that come from? mindless serial killer? wow, thanks... I have no idea where such brutal personal attacks came from but I don't think I deserved that.

I'm not interested in a flame war. please keep any unproductive or agressive comments to yourself.

All I was trying to do was share some actual facts with other people who may be like myself and prefer to educate themselves with facts rather than heresay.

Chad

[liam]

g'day chad,

look up dsmv 5. now tell me i'm lying http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif liam

[Tom]

</span>All I was trying to do was share some actual facts with other people who may be like myself and prefer to educate themselves with facts rather than heresay.

Chad<span =''>
This will be my last attempt to 'educate' you (I don't know why I even try http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ), and then I will shut up.

I am sure you have heard the saying (which I have already quoted) "Lies, Damned lies, and Statistics!"
'Facts' can be quite misleading if you do not know how to interpret them. Do I know the exact impact of the 'facts' you cited? No. But you do not either. You somehow believe that you have stumbled upon the 'Truth', just because you stumbled upon some statistics from the CIA website (how ironic http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

You DREW CONCLUSIONS from those facts with NO corollary evidence or experience. I drew conclusions from those facts with at least ONE (admittedly anecdotal) set of corollary experiences.
I was just trying to make you realize the true value of your 'facts'. That is, by themselves, out of context, they are of limited usefullness.
To put another way, You tried to compare the Russian M/F ratio to the US M/F ratio and draw a subjective conclusion from that (about what might be in a Russian woman's mind, of all things). Unfortunately, That should not have been a 'compare' but a 'contrast', because the ratios are different. And you do not know (and have no way of knowing) what difference would be significant.
I also drew a subjective conclusion, but at least my experience was corrolary (similar M/F ratios between a school I attended and Russia/Ukraine) And yet somehow, in your eyes, my conclusions are 'tainted', 'heresay', or whatever you want to call them. Somehow less valid than your own.

I don't realy know much about psychopathy, but Liam is right about one thing: "Are you a wanna-be phd student?, cos if you are, stop!!!" Because this is pretty basic and you just aren't getting it.

Tom

[Chad]

it's amazing that you continue to attack me and tell me I'm wrong when even the information you posted backs up what I had to say to begin with. You stated that Florida State University, once you actually looked up the factual information, has the ratio of 45/55... that's considerably different than the ratio that russia has. To put it in the same context, your school would have a .81 male/female ratio... now .81 up next to .94... hmm, don't look the same at all to me. Not even close when you realize that means that your school has 19 more women for every 100 men and the russian statistic is only 6. No wonder you got the impression that there were considerably more women there at your school, but it's not the same as russia as you tried to conclude.

I frankly am insulted by your attempts to manipulate my words into something they aren't. Go read my post. I started off saying the comments I made about my own thoughts were just that, my own thoughts. I don't care if anybody decides to deny the facts and cling onto their own illusion. That still doesn't mean I deserve to be attacked. If you don't like what I've said, move on, find something else to read, why attack me? Is it some sort of dominance thing, trying to run me off the board so only your views and 'impressions' can be propogated here? Bah, whatever. Guess it worked. Enjoy.

Chad

[liam]

errr chad , why are you gonna run away when you keep stating that your unconcerned about what people think of your opinions?, your sounding a bit hurt. To me some off your posts sounded a wee bit arrogant, so your fair game mate, simple as that. You seemed to believe that you were intellectually superior to a number of people on the forum, (read back over your posts), now that people have replied with with obvious intelligence your getting intimidated. Why?.

cheer up!!! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif liam

[katya]

</span><span =''>
Hi, Chad!
Sometimes we offend each other, but in biggest part of such situation we don

[liam]

yeah katya http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif , your a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad girl!!!!!!!
http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katya]

</span><span =''>
Liam , I am harmful and capricious http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[liam]

hi chad, come on mate, i can see you skulking around the forum, post something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (i know your dying too and i promise tom won't bully you anymore http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ) liam

[777]

Hi Liam, I also see you being on the look-out in front of the forum like a hunter at the stance! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Chad, if you'll make a log out and a log in again with marked "Don't add me to the active user's list", Liam will wonder why he doesn't see anyone anymore! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[liam]

yeah man, 'big brothers' watching over you!!!!, i think chads been arrested by the 'thought police', whatever next!!!!! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif liam

[Tom]

</span>[QUOTE= (liam @ Jan. 28 2003,00:54)](i know your dying too and i promise tom won't bully you anymore http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[liam]

hi tom,

i simply cannot believe that you are still bullying the fagile wee waif chad, the poor guys crying in his beer over your vicious and cruel coments. His been locked away in his local governments statistical records office for three days now, with only a packet of cigarettes and a healthy supply of toilet paper (excitable chap our chad!!!!!! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). please leave him alone or he's gonna go the way of the infamous and comical byoof and end up in the looney-bin http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katya]

</span><span =''>
as more I look at you , as more I understand , that you are children.
sometimes I ever feel meself very adult !!!! what are you doing ?! I must have childhood http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[liam]

ha katya http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif , don't worry, when you finally admit that i'm the ideal man for you, and we walk hand in hand up the church to wedded bliss it'll all become obvious and apparent to you.
liam http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[katya]

</span><span =''>
Liam, blonds and models will never forgive or forget about it!!! think , that you telling.
what you will make , if great model-blond will go here ? http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[liam]

http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[777]

This thread has come to an dead end and three members got at loggerheads more or less.
I looked through it, first I found:

Chad @ Jan. 18 2003,03:56

</span> Anyway, ... these are my thoughts, mine alone. ... If you are going to try and riddicule me or try to change my mind, do me a favor and send it privately to icouldn'tcareless@mindyourbusiness.com and ...
<span =''>

Chad, this remembers to a man in the street, who cries: "I'm afraid of being robbed!" Of course if he would have been silent, he wouldn't be noticed, but now he called attention of the robbers and got what he feared for.

Your post was very interesting and well written - wherefrom this fear of being ridiculed or affronted ??

Often because of such a fear one get upset by oneself without reason http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif (having negative instead of positive views), for example.

Chad @ Jan. 20 2003,17:52

</span> your comments are still tainted <span =''>

and the following will develop as a so-called self-fullfilling prediction. So other will react in a way, that one absolutely wants to avoid!

The way out of this dilemma?

All concerned ones should recognize their part (attitudes to change) of the heating-up of the discussion , may post words of true regret and offer conciliation. http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[liam]

g'day 777,

yeah, i finding real hard to sleep at night, my concience is killing me. what have i done!!!!!!!!! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif , i feel terrible!!!!!., what happens when chad has finished stock-piling automatic pistols and ammunition?, what about all those molotov-cocktailks he's hidden in his cellar? there's gonna be a massacre, and i'm gonna be the one to blame.
the lasts words that come out the serial-killers mouth will be, "damm those evil people on the forum, they drove me too it, they just could'nt understand me, liam and tom why?,why?,why?" http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . liam

[liam]

g'day,

but to be serious, its all tom's fault!!!! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Oh my, I dont think I have laughed this #### hard in awhile! granted I may be a wee bit of a "late bloomer" here, but at first the topic was a bit interesting. I am not a vocal person, but I would like to believe a person of action. But this was some "interesting information" if I may use those words. I "had" to post my comment. I have done thinking on all of the above and would love a little "playfull and thoughtfull" verbal tossing. I am experienced with foriegn affairs, I have done much traveling and have been "school'd" one or twice. but never believed that I would be in the postion with cupid aiming at my "arse" with and arrow. I am speaking to a lady now for a few months and soon to enbark to her home land. But I am terrible uncomfortable of the logix, Sometimes I wonder if satin himself westles for my soul using her as the instrument, Or I have truely found an angel. I must say that I have all ways seemed to be fond of russian woman, but at the same time terrible concerned about the facts of it all. Rule 1, logic and emotions do not mix. Rule 2, the more variables you add the more #### confusing it gets. anyone up to debate with me, or has this issue became a "dead end"?

[liam]

g'day groundzero, welcome mate, where abouts in russia does this lovely lady live? http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif liam

[liam]

ps i was gonna take the piss but i got a pm from katya and she said if i was mean to anyone else on the forum she was'nt gonna marry me http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif liam

[groundzero]

LMAO, Granted I come armed with a big heart, but senativity on a neutral ground is not for the fainted hearted. she is from moldava. An interesting question to start off with, may I ask why you ask?

[Jon]

</span>An interesting question to start off with, may I ask why you ask?<span =''>
Maybe Liam thinks he knows her? Or he's thinking that if you succeed then he'll go follow suit...just joking... http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Actually we are all interested when another member dates a woman from the FSU. Where is she from is a typical question and not really intended to pry...just curious.

Good luck with love...

Jon

[liam]

yeah mate, its always interesting to here from some-one attempting to do what many others on this forum are trying to do http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif , whatever happens you'll have a cool time in molodova regardless, i'm sure http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif liam, where did you meet the lucky lady?, liam

[Tom]

</span>[QUOTE= (Guest @ Feb. 04 2003,00:20)]granted I may be a wee bit of a "late bloomer" here, but at first the topic was a bit interesting. But this was some "interesting information" if I may use those words. I "had" to post my comment. I have done thinking on all of the above and would love a little "playfull and thoughtfull" verbal tossing. Rule 1, logic and emotions do not mix.

[groundzero]

It was grand to see everyone join back into this discussion. First I would like to state that I look forward to your input on this subject. I enjoy other peoples view points. I think it can be a very enlighting situation for us all and we can learn from each other. Secondly I want to say I appreciate the support from each of you. I did not expect that. I have not gotten a lot of support on this from those around me. In my world I tend to be the guy roling the dice and people watch me to see what happens http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif I have all ways been an "out of the box thinker" hence the name "groundzero". I would be glad to share with my experiences as I go through this if I

[Serge]

Geez...and I was just looking for someone to go ice fishing with http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[groundzero]

LOL, I did get a little deep didnt I serge http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif I had a lot to spit out http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katya]

</span><span =''>
Hi!
All is good , but - there is one

[Serge]

</span>LOL, I did get a little deep didnt I serge http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif I had a lot to spit out http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif<span =''>
Hello GZ. I really liked your description of marrage as being an institution. It seems that many forget that it is the institution that comes first and not their own agenda. I have heard of Marrage refered to as a fortress for well being as well. All these noble analogies. Such a shame that is is held in such low regard. I really enjoyed reading your post.
Regards
Serge

[Vicky]

Marriage is an institution, but it's not a form of ownership which people tend to forget http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[groundzero]

Just a short post tonight... Or I will try http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

First to Vicky, Your are very correct. people do forget that "ownership" is not a part of a marriage. and sorry guys, it tends to be us in the majority that does this. to me this part of marriage is more of a teamwork concept. I also think that this tends to be a forgotten rule. But this tangent can have several diffrent paths to how a "relationship" should be.

Secondly to Katya, Thankyou for sharing. I dont mean to be corny but you hold a particular view to this whole discussion, that is very important that simple deduction will not do itself. You have pointed out something and I would like to clarify. "must" was a very firm word without description. I re-read my post and unless I missed it I stated "need". Which is the way I ment it. I need someone to match me for chenistry to work. compatibility is a "must" but it is a two way street. As she must understand me, I MUST also understand her and respect her as an individual. In my last post I did a lousy job in saying this. Chemistry is a two way road, you must share the same values, understanding, and respect each other or simply chemistry will not work. Another thing though I did not quite understand is your first sentence.. "Not be waiting, that woman from another country will be angel only because she is from another country." I think I understand , but I am not sure and do not wish to be disrespectfull in my translation. Are you saying that she is only being an angel because she is "exotic" or "diffrent" to american male? Or are you saying that she is being angel because it allows her to get her way into the dreams that she wants. Or am I still off base http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif As for your encounter with the "ICQ Man", I am speachless but not surprised. Again human nature is human nature no matter if it is male or female. Some people just dont feel that they have self value any more. But One thing that amazed me about FSU woman is this. I interviewed two FSU woman. Both had won the russian lottery and niether had children. Both woman were young with much older husbands. at least 20 years diffrence. I was amazed at the ladies dedication to their vows of marriage and how strongly they felt towards thier husbands. and their own self value. I state cautiously but firmly, that this seems to be a norm that is sliping from american values. And to back that up I am 33 and the woman that I talk too is 25. In the states that is pushig the norm of age in society, but does not restricted to many other extreme circumstances. But do you know that I trust her more than I trust any woman that I have ever dated? and trust me that is wierd for me to say with the history that I have behind me. And she is halfway across the world. she likes to travel, one time she is in romania visiting friends, next bulgaria for ski resort with friends, last time ukraine for work. FSU woman have values that traditional men cannot find anymore here in the states. Either that or I am blind as a bat. I state this katya to get your view points and thoughts. I have much more to say but I want to take "small bites" first. See my lady asked me the same question about why I choose her, can you imagine "crossing" the language barrier with information from my last post? http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Thirdly a response to serge. Thank you sir, I apreciate your compliment. I am glad to be a part of this conversation.

Goodnight to all, till next time...

[katya]

</span>Marriage is an institution, but it's not a form of ownership which people tend to forget http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif<span =''>
Vicky , it isn

[liam]

http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[katya]

</span><span =''>
Hi groundzero,
First. I don

[Vicky]

groundzero has got a degree in sciences, that's why he can't help talking about chemistry http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[777]

Quote Vicky, Katya today

Ooooh, Vicky, you're teasing both! Now poor Katya has got some question marks more circling around her head!

Katya, you're studying chemistry (I believe to have read this in one of your posts (I once did it, too, but prefered to be occupied with other things)). Love and chemistry? Of course, when you are in your laboratory, heating the Erlenmeyer flasks with your Bunsen burner, you're not necessarily having thoughts of love and vice versa http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
But if you want to have a reaction between 2 reagents, there must be an affinity of the both chemicals.
So in human terms the attraction = affinity between the genders is also called chemistry: No chemistry = no reaction = no or only little interest in one another, for example ... (but this time I stop to give a hint at the lamenting liam, I'll adress to him in a seperate post) http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
But if the chemistry is right, even a detonating gas explosion may occur! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[katya]

</span><span =''>
chemistry and feel is different things. One bad - when even one substance is end , all is stop. or go back.
and - second- you need in catalyst And , as usually , it isn't find yet!!!
as in chemistry , as and in love.
and , how bad things you can have , when you take 2 substances , I'll better not write. and how make it , too http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif)))

[Tom]

</span>[quote=groundzero,Feb. 08 2003,01:11]
P.S. I am

[reverai]

&gt;I

[groundzero]

Katya,

I am not offended by your post and enjoy the information you share. please allow me to try and to make myself a little more understood. I understand a little more what you write now. http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

"that if man not respect woman of his country