good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!&

[liam]

g'day all, i know this probably is'nt the right 'forum' for this subject but seeing as this is the only forum i have ever used i'm gonna say it anyway.
its seems today that war in the persian gulf is imminent, probably within the next couple of days. the arm's inspectors are fleeing bagdad double-quick and the british forces have been given orders to be ready to immeadiatly upon orders 'advance to contact'. its all a bit grim and politics, propaganda, religion, nationalism etc aside i'd just like to wish any and all combatants and civilians in the impending war-zone good luck and god's-speed in returning home safe and well. practically every male in my family for the last 130 years has served within britains armed forces and i have several family members and quite a few friends deployed in that region who are gonna be entering a nightmare about which i have very little real comprehension or knowledge. i have a massive amount of respect for these people, so good-luck, cheers and well-done. andy.g

[katya]

</span><span =''>
I am afraid.
Why people are so sever ? How can father send his child to kill child of another man ? how can mother let do it ? how people can be agree at war at all ?
We looking at people.. politic see at people only masses

[liam]

hi katya, i totally agree with you. but the world is'nt all fluffy ducks and pretty flowers and sometimes the only solution to diplomatic/political failure is often war. i just think that its important for those people with the strenght and fortitude to represent me and my life feel valued and respected.

without being too political i just can't help but feel that that appeasement brought about war in europe and russia twice last century at hideous cost and when the first nuclear/chemical/biological bomb goes of over a city its too late. besides men only go to war in foreign lands in the hope that they can stop it before it reaches there home-land directly. cheers, liam

[katya]

</span><span =''>
Simply. If you have choose - good war or bad peace , why not choose peace ?

[Serge]

</span>[quote=liam,Mar. 17 2003,17:01]
Simply.

[Tom]

</span>[quote=liam,Mar. 17 2003,17:01]
Simply.

[liam]

an awsome and real post tom, pretty much a carbon-copy of experiences i had at school. if there was one thing i never understood in my teenage years it was why some people let themselves be constantly bullied, it just seemed silly to go through life getting the hard-knocks when in reality, just as you say, if you stand up to a bully, they will run away, if they don't, just 'go' them, see what happens, win/loose or draw, you'll always come out feeling a million times better about yourself. http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif , in a way its a shame but its reality. liam (about to go and pick on a little wee nerd just to show how big and tough i am http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ..................where's Chad when you need him http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif )

[katya]

Tom
All is good , but for broke all Earth it is enough bomb , which can do only one country . And on this planet will live not people , but rats and cockroaches.

[riffstar]

Katya, Katya, sweet Katya...during "peacetime", Stalin murdered far more than 12 million of your countrymen (sorry Tom---the latest figures are more like 30 to 50 million--including a spot in Siberia where an entire new bend of a river was composed of 250,000 corpses--with trees growing thru them where thay had lain for more than 50 years!). During "peacetime", Pol Pot murdered 2 million Cambodians. During "peacetime" Mao-Tse-Tung murdered so many millions that we may never know the true figure. During "peacetime" Idi Amin murdered nearly a million Ugandans, and the murder continues in Libya and Chad today---and in the last 12 years Saddam Hussein has murdered over a million Kurds and at least 100,000 of his fellow Iraqis---including one poor brave, doomed soul who spoke out just last week. Saddam's thugs chained him to a post, took out his eyes, cut out his tongue, sliced off his genitals and left him to bleed to death in the public square as a warning to those who would dare to open their mouths against the Great Murderer.
There's your bad peace, sweet Katya.
Sometimes people of good will have to say "This will not stand."

[katya]

People deserves that government which it has. It is necessary to pay for all.
At wars inhabitants of other countries suffer. For what?

Why America has not helped Albania? There too there was a dictatorship, but in Albania there is no oil.

[riffstar]

Katya---I see you are being wilfully ignorant. In Albania there was no oil, true---but also there was no Albanian Great Murderer threatening the peace of the entire world by gassing his own people, launching missiles at Israel and murdering Kurds and Kuwaitis by the 100,000s.
Be honest for once in your young life, Katya. I think you would countenence ANY genocide, as long as it was committed by people who share your hatred of America. Dead bodies in their millions don't bother you at all, as long as your Pal Saddam murdered them---but when America, Britain, Spain, and most of the former slave countries of Eastern Europe (who KNOW how murderous your own USSR was toward them) stand up and show the courage to stop the genocide NOW, before it takes on the proportions of the death toll committted by Stalin and Hitler, YOU blame the Americans.
America has been spending billions in food aid and investments in your country ever since the USSR collapsed under the weight of its own dictatorship. Next time you have a meal, remeber that it may well have been paid for with MY tax dollars----but like all stray dogs, you will of course bite the hand that feeds you.
Perhaps when you grow up, you will at last develop a conscience and a sense of shame---but I doubt it.

[riffstar]

And by the way---America has sent nearly 2 billion dollars in aid to Albania. Get your facts straight if you want your lies to be convincing.

[liam]

riffstar, i don't know enough about american foriegn policy to comment too much on your post, but to be honest your idealism of the 'american way' is exactly the same as katya's idealistic view of 'humanism'. you both believe what you believe and thats cool, but to call a girl a stray-dog is way harsh, taking any sort of intellectual argument to such a level only negates the valid points you already made. you can agree or disagree, its not my problem, but one thing i do know is that unless you keep the 'moral highground' the only way you can ever win a argument, debate or even a war is by becoming a bully. cheers, liam.

[Serge]

riffstar, i don't know enough about american foriegn policy to comment too much on your post, but to be honest your idealism of the 'american way' is exactly the same as katya's idealistic view of 'humanism'. you both believe what you believe and thats cool, but to call a girl a stray-dog is way harsh, taking any sort of intellectual argument to such a level only negates the valid points you already made. you can agree or disagree, its not my problem, but one thing i do know is that unless you keep the 'moral highground' the only way you can ever win a argument, debate or even a war is by becoming a bully. cheers, liam.
Hey...good post and you didn't use the F word once http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Tom]

I don't want this to turn ugly. Katya is an idealist. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is quite admirable. Her heart is pure. (The only thing she has ever said that really bothers me, is that she believes that Russian mothers love their children more that American mothers.)
But idealism must be tempered by realism. As Katya gains maturity, she will gain some realism. All is good. http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Personally, I believe that 'better people' are essential idealists. But the road to hell (there is that word again http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ) is paved with good intentions. On the the other hand, people who are essential realists without much idealism can be far more evil; like Stalin, Saddam (and Clinton http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ).

[Tom]

Also, I wanted to clarify a few things.
First, my reference to 12 million dead Russians are those 12 million that were killed at the hands of the Nazis. Stalin had a chance to choose war or peace with the Nazis. He chose peace. And then the Nazis killed 12 million Russians.
Peace is not always a wise choice.

And why not Albania? Do you remember Kosovo, Katya? Is there a lot of oil there? There is no oil, but there was Genocide. Against the ethnic Albanians, committed by the Serbs. There was no material benefit for our going there. It is curious that you would choose Albania of all examples of dictatorships.

[Vicky]

Correct me if I'm wrong but i've heard on tv today that in the event Irag gets its "freedom", the man in power will be some general, i don't remember his name, but he's an Interpol wanted criminal, right for murdering Kurds in thousands with biochemical weapons.

[liam]

i'll correct you cos your wrong http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif , in the interim iraq is gonna be run mostly by retired u.s generals, most likely with the british providing 'peace-keeping' soldiers ala afghanistan. probably for a couple of years. liam

ps. i'm not sure what tom's gonna say vicky, you accusing the u.s generals of war crimes against the kurds (or should it be war crimes against the people of vietnam, laos and cambodia http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif )

[liam]

speaking of stalin................Stalin, Kruschev and Brezhnev were on a train. Suddenly it stopped in the middle of nowhere and they were all very annoyed. 'shoot the driver!', ordered stalin, but still the train did'nt move. 'rehabilitate the driver!', commanded Kruschev, but still nothing happened. finally brezhnev stood up and ordered, 'pull down the blinds and pretend we're moving!'...............................liam

[Vicky]

You are correcting our tv, liam, not me http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
and i'm not accusing generals, they are doing what they are told. I'm actually not going to accuse anyone, just that whenever a war starts i start thinking of people, civilians who will suffer. I thought of iraq civilians who may not approve the policy but imagine what they feel knowing a huge army is ready to strike their country with megatons of bombs, who knows who will suffer. Politicians are up to ears in their games but it's always civil populations that pays.

[liam]

its 3.40pm here and i've just watched bush's address to the nation on cnn. its all going off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[liam]

come-on-england!!!!!!!!!!!!! (repeat a hundred times)............................................ ........................................
..................

[Tom]

its 3.40pm here and i've just watched bush's address to the nation on cnn. its all going off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, the 'Start' is going to be a bit of a stutter step. The 'Shock and Awe' will have to wait.
According to the news, they did not plan on starting the bombing for at least another day. But they suddenly aquired some intelligence on some 'high level Iraqi leadership' and sent in about a dozen bombs to try and get them.
SNAFU, I guess you could say, since they were planning on a spectacular start and now that won't happen.

[liam]

yeah, i got a bit excited, there saying they've attacked 'government target' with cruise missles, the first rumor is that they were after tariq azziz (foreign minister).

[Tom]

[QUOTE= (liam @ Mar. 19 2003,20:58)]i'll correct you cos your wrong http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif , in the interim iraq is gonna be run mostly by retired u.s generals, most likely with the british providing 'peace-keeping' soldiers ala afghanistan. probably for a couple of years. liam

ps.

[liam]

lol, but stupid enough to appoint clinton as your commander-in-chief http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Vicky]

Liers on russian tv then http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
And somehow this Tariq Azziz sounds familiar...at least they told that the US took some iranian from Sweden where he was hiding from Interpol and they are going to make him a new leader.

[Tom]

Liers on russian tv then http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
And somehow this Tariq Azziz sounds familiar...at least they told that the US took some iranian from Sweden where he was hiding from Interpol and they are going to make him a new leader.
Well, that makes more sense. (at least that someone would say it...not that we would actually do it.)
What I mean is...I would not call them liars for their speculation. I would just say that the bit of speculation that you heard on TV was a bit silly http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
It is the US plan to appoint a US General to run Iraq for a while (who knows how long?), like we did with Japan after WWII.

[Tom]

[QUOTE= (Vicky @ Mar. 19 2003,22:07)]Liers on russian tv then http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
And somehow this Tariq Azziz sounds familiar...at least they told that the US took some iranian from Sweden where he was hiding from Interpol and they are going to make him a new leader.
Well, that makes more sense.

[liam]

oh tom your looking at mcarthur (?) as the governer of japan through rosey coloured glasses, the man was a nightmare and even your president finally had to give him a giant bollocking cos of the sheer embarresment he was causing your country

[Serge]

[QUOTE= (Tom @ Mar. 19 2003,22:17)][QUOTE= (Vicky @ Mar. 19 2003,22:07)]Liers on russian tv then http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
And somehow this Tariq Azziz sounds familiar...at least they told that the US took some iranian from Sweden where he was hiding from Interpol and they are going to make him a new leader.
Well, that makes more sense.

[Serge]

lol...Did I just write that? I need to get into the habbit of proofing before I press enter...lol.

[Vicky]

continuing after Serge http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

... share the country between allys, start controlling it and never... NEVER give back to Russia what Iraq owed it http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[liam]

'how does america know that iraq's got chemical/biological weopons?........................they kept the recipts!!!!!!!! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif liam

[Serge]

continuing after Serge http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

... share the country between allys, start controlling it and never... NEVER give back to Russia what Iraq owed it http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Vicky I wouldn't be so sure...After Saddam is deposed and a provisional government is in place, there will be piles....no mountains of money to be made rebuilding Iraq. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia was a part of that. But who knows. Putin may wish that he had played his card a little differently.

[katya]

Riffstar.
I don

[Vicky]

Sorry for Katya, who seems to be offended.

Now about war again. I can't understand why this is still going on when demonstrations against it were held today in practically every city of the world... I've listened to our president today, who called the war "a big political mistake." He was also talking about principles of the world community which might be shaken or even destroyed if someone who's a profi in wrestling rather than in talking will think that there's only one principle that rules the world "he is right who is stronger".

[liam]

g'day, yeah katya should be a little offended but at least she'll stand up to her beliefs http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif , no offence though vicky but putin hardly has any moral right to complain about the war in iraq. maybe when he orders his soldiers to stop raping and murdering civilians in chechnya, to cease totally the way out dodgy military policy's towards those people (who, yes i know are not angels but still don't deserve there treatment of mass oppression). then maybe i can take him seriously, he even let a hundred or so brave sailors die in the 'kursk' rather than ask for or accept the specialist help offered that probably could have saved them. there is no doubt he's a very tough man. but to pass judgement on others for 'brutality' and oppression is just plain silly. cheers liam

[liam]

g'day, yeah katya should be a little offended but at least she'll stand up to her beliefs http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif , no offence though vicky but putin hardly has any moral right to complain about the war in iraq. maybe when he orders his soldiers to stop raping and murdering civilians in chechnya, to cease totally the way out dodgy military policy's towards those people (who, yes i know are not angels but still don't deserve there treatment of mass oppression). then maybe i can take him seriously, he even let a hundred or so brave sailors die in the 'kursk' rather than ask for or accept the specialist help offered that probably could have saved them. there is no doubt he's a very tough man. but to pass judgement on others for 'brutality' and oppression is just plain silly. cheers liam

[Serge]

Sorry for Katya, who seems to be offended.

Now about war again. I can't understand why this is still going on when demonstrations against it were held today in practically every city of the world... I've listened to our president today, who called the war "a big political mistake." He was also talking about principles of the world community which might be shaken or even destroyed if someone who's a profi in wrestling rather than in talking will think that there's only one principle that rules the world "he is right who is stronger".
This is interesting. The muslims have done a lot of dammage to your country as well. The bombing in Bogorodsk for example. It is hard for me to understand why he opposes this war because in a way it is a war against terrorism. Sure Iraq owes Russia 12 billion large but who is to say that Russia would ever see any of it? As for Katya....why wouldn't she be offended Riff was WAY out of line. If this is how he deals with a post that he doesn't like on a freakin message board, how will he deal with real conflicts?

[liam]

nice one serge

[Tom]

oh tom your looking at mcarthur (?) as the governer of japan through rosey coloured glasses, the man was a nightmare and even your president finally had to give him a giant bollocking cos of the sheer embarresment he was causing your country
I am no fan of McArthur.

[Tom]

Now about war again. I can't understand why this is still going on when demonstrations against it were held today in practically every city of the world... I've listened to our president today, who called the war "a big political mistake." He was also talking about principles of the world community which might be shaken or even destroyed if someone who's a profi in wrestling rather than in talking will think that there's only one principle that rules the world "he is right who is stronger".
I don't know if you knew this, but our 'Speaker of the House', who is third in line to the Presidency, was a wrestling coach!! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well, %70 of the rest of the world is against this war. But %70 of Americans are for it. There is your answer.

The people who are for this war fall into one of three groups, as far as I can tell.

First, a lot of Americans want revenge for 9/11, nevermind that Iraq had almost nothing to do with it. Anybody (preferably Arab) will do.

Second, the humanatarians, who would include Serge and Blair. I believe there is a very real chance that the Iraqis will be better off in the long run as a result of this. But only if the war is short and easy like Afghanastan.

And third, national security. This is very real. I definately believe that we (the US) will be safer in the long run because of this. The reasons are complicated and I don't want to write a treatise on it, but I think I have covered it in an abstract way in past posts. I fall primarily into this crowd.

[Tom]

Sure Iraq owes Russia 12 billion large but who is to say that Russia would ever see any of it?
Yes, Irag owes Russia $10-12 billion. But Russia was making more than that, really. I guess the Russian Mafia is really running Russia because what the Russians were doing to Iraq is right out of an episode of the Sopranos!!! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Iraq owes Russia 10b-cash. Since Iraq has been short on cash for the last few years, Russia has been charging 'interest' in the form of oil at below market prices. Russia then turns around and sells the oil for market price, making easy money. I am not sure of the exact figures, but I read one estimate that Russia was probably going to pull in upwards of $100 billion before the deal was done. Vicky is right. Russia will not get that money now. They missed out.

[Serge]

[QUOTE= (Tom @ Mar. 20 2003,17:54)]Second, the humanatarians, who would include Serge and Blair.

[Serge]

continuing after Serge http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

... share the country between allys, start controlling it and never... NEVER give back to Russia what Iraq owed it http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Geez Vick...you must have a really good sence of humor to post this with smiley faces....I wouuld have thought you might have been really pissed.... I would have http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[imported_admin]

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