Lov in Internet- it is interesting.

[angelin]

big and clean love in the Internet... it is something new. Are you really believe in it ?
I think , it is place, where one trying to sell yourself is expensive, and others - cheaply to buy you.

angelin,

Hello? Where are you coming from with this idea? Do you really believe that the internet is a modern slave market for young and beautiful FSU women to be bought and sold?

Please, it's just another medium (forum) to meet people whom you may wish to begin a relationship with. You have freewill and a choice not to participate. Nobody is coming to your town and requesting (demanding) that you submit to their rules.

Marriage agencies on the internet have a bad reputation, as does the concept of "foreign bride" in the U.S. Most of my contemporaries shy away from the idea of meeting a woman from the FSU because of the stigma associated with it.

Many years ago, most people thought of meeting and marrying a foreign woman as "bought" from a catalog. That's where the name "mail order bride" came from originally. Meeting someone on the internet can still be construed as buying a foreign bride, but I don't think it's an accurate concept today.

Good luck in your search for a friend, husband, and ??

Jon

[angelin]

</span>[QUOTE= (Guest @ Oct. 23 2002,12:55)]angelin,

Hello?

[Lawrence]

Dear Angelin,

Personally i think you could succeed through the internet.
The internet is a tool for talking just like a telephone. The advantage is that you can meet a person who lives further away.

I understand your remarks on beauty and pictures, but let's ace it. Many people go to a disco. dance and judge on looks. There is no way to have a decent conversation in a disco, and often after the dance and the drinks the man and the woman have sex, and after that they start to talk. At least here you have to talk first, and then maybe you meet and perhaps have sex.

There is a disadvantage. When you are with a person you see the body language of the person and several other 'signals' to which you will react positive or negative. But you will be dependant on a first look. Here at least people get to talk first, they do not judge on the fashion of clothes, the size of breasts or the change of having immediate sex.

The disadvantage here is that you are dependent on the honesty of each other. Some men are here claiming to have jobs unlike anywhere in the universe, houses like millionaires and other things. Women sometimes advertise themselves as supermodels or more often claim to be higher educated then a person can be.

Personally i think if you use your brain, and accept your heart and walk honest and tall. Yes you can succeed on the internet.

[Jon]

Dear angelin,

Actually I'm not on any sites looking for a beautiful FSUW or any other woman, man or beast for that matter. I occassionlly browse some web-sites for intertainment. I say this because it's amusing to see what people place in their profiles. I don't begin any letters about my wealth because it's not their business. Even if I were looking for a woman in the FSU, I certainly don't need to brag about wealth or houses or sexual proweness.

Now my friend, the truth is that I am an American with British (EU) citizenship living in Holland -- which I might add has some of the most beautiful women around. I've already found what I was looking for through an introduction -- friend or a friend kinda of thing. She just happens to be Ukrainian. I could meet Dutch, Spanish, French, etc. and be perfectly happy.

My original reply to you was simply that men and women now have an opportunity to explore relationships that were not possible five or ten years ago. The internet is just another means by which people can become acquainted and maybe have a serious long-term relationship. This doesn't mean that western men should treat FSU as concubine. What it means is that maybe love and friendship can be found outside the normal channels.

Oh, by the way, I am not looking for a girl, but a woman. I don't believe it's possible to have a serious relationship with someone who is twenty years younger. Maybe for some people, but what do you talk about? I want (have found) a woman more close to my age.

Please don't be such a skeptic when it comes to men searching for women on the internet. They may or may not be serious, but I suspect that is also the case with some of the women who use the internet to find a mate. It's a big world and getting smaller.

Cheers and congradulations of finding yours,

Jon

[angelin]

</span>[QUOTE= (Jon @ Oct. 25 2002,11:24)]Dear angelin,

Actually I'm not on any sites looking for a beautiful FSUW or any other

[Marv]

Hello Angelin,
I just want to say hello! Your business is nothing of my business. But! If you have a Russian man who interested in your heart and an American man who is interested in something else that is not for the long term, go for the Russian man. Americans can promise a lot but may not be able to deliver. Follow your HEART my dear! I am American but I want only what my other half wants!
Best regards,
Marv

[Jon]

Dear Angelin,

I agree with Marv. Don't believe everything an American or other western man tells you. First of all, not all Americans are rich. He (the American) probably has a good income and some debts, but I doubt that he is really rich. My idea of rich is someone with more than $5 million dollars. I have too many friends who are rich on paper, but poor in the bank. It's so easy to impress women in the FSU with a few trinkets and let them believe they are rich.

That's not the point of your story though. Think about how each treats you. Imagine yourself being swept away by the man whom you'd want to spend your life with. Love is important, but it is also a moment of passion. Trust, respect and honesty are also very important parts of a healthy relationship.

Do you respect or trust either of these two men? Have you met the American man yet? If not, then how can he possibly love you so soon? I believe that for you to really know what's in your heart is to spend time with each of these men and decide. Maybe neither one of them is right for you? Maybe you will need to continue searching for that special someone? Don't rush into a decision that could affect your happiness for years to come. Be logical and practical. Think about what it is you like about each man and what you don't like about each man.

My friend, you have all the time in the world to find someone who will be your best friend. I think that once you find this person you will be the happiest woman in the world!!!

Good luck -- Jon (in Holland)

[Jon]

Dear Angelin,

Here is another point that I'd like to make. How romantic are either of these two men? I read your post about the American man telling you about material wealth and was very disturbed by it.

I am dating an Ukrainian from Vinnitsa and spend two weeks with her in Turkey recently. I know that it's possible for me to love her, but I'm not in love yet. I sent her roses a week after we returned from holiday just to tell her how much I enjoyed spending time with her. I haven't tried to "buy" her love or tell her she will live a good life. I've told her the truth about my income, work, and previous marriage. I've told her that I am NOT RICH and that I work hard for my money. I don't have millions in the bank, but enough to relax and not worry about problems.

I didn't spend thousands in Istanbul shopping for clothes or jewerly either. She purchased one dress for $30 euros and that was after about 8 hours of shopping in two days. I never will tell her how great life will be in Holland with a rich American. That's not real life, but a fairy tale. Real life is often difficult and sometimes even cruel. Russian men and women understand this very well.

So what is either of these men really offering you? I hope you are seeking a friend (BEST FRIEND) who you want to share everything in life with. I hope that these men value you as a human being and not just a beautiful young woman.

Everyone grows old, it's a fact of life, but how we reach old age is more important than getting there...don't rush into a situation you may regret when you're 80 years old and looking back at the decisions you've made.

Good luck and I'd be happy to give you any insights into the American male you'd like. I'll try and be objective because I don't have a vested interest in your relationships.

Bye -- Jon

[angelin]

</span><span =''>
hello, Jon!
I was meet American man in life. He was meet me, he was go to me. We was writing 6 month. and in letters he wasn't tell me first time, that he is rich. But later he was tell. He have very big money every month. simply this two men are very different. I am not love they - but I know, that they love me, and I can love too. in Future. And they was meet each other. I cannot tell, that he like each other. I don't know, what to choose - rich life in another country or live in Russia.
P.S. my heart keep silence. But I am not 18 years old girl, to wait.

[Vicky]

Just a remark.
What I think of the choice between the two assuring they love. First thing and very important one - talk, again talk, and talk once again and again. And the purpose of this talk will be not getting to know how rich the guy is, but finding whose mentality is closer to yours, whether you take important things the same way, and - which is not less important - if your way of life, customs, things you take as normal and usual are taken as normal and usual by your chosen. My last experience, for example, was nice, friendly, good in many aspects, but totally different concerning little things which constitute day-to-day life. So, you might probably have to live for a while with a person to understand he's not the one you need, but words are nothing http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Though we, girls, adore nice words, but we should be smart enough to see the actions behind them.

[Marv]

Dear Angelin,
I of course don't live in a FSU country. BUT! I have learned a lot about life after my divorce from an American woman. A lot of money does not buy happiness. I have met a woman from Ukraine who has asked me more serious questions about life than I have ever been asked before. We talk only about respect, trust, fidelity and how they relate to friendship and later love if it happens. You must become friends before you fall in love. This may sound not very exciting but I know that when my friend and I finally meet next spring, we will have a better understanding of each other. I am not saying that everything will be perfect but dialogue with substance is. I would never tell any woman that America is "paradise." It is not. I live in a great country but we work hard to make it so.

As an American who received heartfelt messages from the FSU countries after September 11th, my heart goes out to those who suffered losses in the attacks on innocents in Moscow this last week.

Best regards,

Marv

[Jon]

Dear Angelin,

Just a couple of pointers on American economics. Say for an example that someone makes $6000.00 each month. Giving several situations that may not be a great deal of mone, and certainly doesn't make them rich, but it's a good income.

Now what does $6000.00 buy you each month.

Rent/Mortgage $950.00
Utilities/Phone 125.00
Automobile 350.00
Insurance 115.00
Gasoline 95.00
Credit cards 500.00
Food 400.00
Entertainment 200.00
Clothing 100.00
Misc. 250.00
---------
Sub-total $3085.00

Taxes - Federal 1350.00
State 250.00
---------
$1600.00

Medical Insurance $125.00

Total Expenses $4800.00

Less Income $6000.00
---------
Balance $1200.00


So here is a typical (hypothetical) situation with a man making about $6000.00 each month. He may have additional expenses or support obligations so the ending balance may be less. Either way, he may live a comfortable life, but in no way is he rich.

Now, I don't know how much your American told you his income was, but anything over $8000.00 a month is upper-middle class. I've know too many people who shoot off a figure but don't tell the FSU woman what remains after all their expenses. It's different if he made more than $10,000 each month, but I hardly doubt it.

The average income for Americans is less that what most people in the world would like to believe. We have a good number of people who live below the poverty line. Only people with incomes over $100,000 a year are considered living a comfortable life, maybe?

Women in the FSU should really wake up and ask tough questions about the financial situation of American men they meet on the internet. I've read stories (heard from friends) about FSU women coming to American and living on food stamps or some other form of government assistance because their American husband wasn't able to support them as he claimed.

Tough life for a young FSU woman to endure. Honesty in a relationship is more than counting their money, but also how they spend their money. How they explain their financial situation to women from the FSU. I am amazed at the number of times a woman from the FSU has told me that thier boyfriends are rich?

Finally, I'm glad that you are intelligent enough to know the difference between love and money. Don't always believe that you will find the two as equality to the quality of life!!!!

Good luck my friend,

Jon

[angelin]

</span>Dear Angelin,
I of course don't live in a FSU country. BUT! I have learned a lot about life after my divorce from an American woman. A lot of money does not buy happiness. I have met a woman from Ukraine who has asked me more serious questions about life than I have ever been asked before. We talk only about respect, trust, fidelity and how they relate to friendship and later love if it happens. You must become friends before you fall in love. This may sound not very exciting but I know that when my friend and I finally meet next spring, we will have a better understanding of each other. I am not saying that everything will be perfect but dialogue with substance is. I would never tell any woman that America is "paradise." It is not. I live in a great country but we work hard to make it so.

As an American who received heartfelt messages from the FSU countries after September 11th, my heart goes out to those who suffered losses in the attacks on innocents in Moscow this last week.

Best regards,

Marv<span =''>
Hello,
I am telling with they every day. with one at day , with another - at the late evening. I have computer and I have phone. that are very nice, as first , as another. they are different. but great.
And I am interesting aech other. I know American man 7 month, and russian on some days smaller.
and I know, what kind are they , I know, what is good in they, and what is bad.
But I must choose one!
I am not need in harem http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
and, all looking for good life. and you too. and nobody want to be mistaken.
and, of course, they are my friends

[angelin]

</span>Jon<span =''>
Jon
he have more, then 200 000 $ in a year. Is it enough?
and he not tell lie. I was see papers.
and now look.
I am student. I have the biggest grant from country , as only possible.
it is 10 $
from my town I take 10 $ more. Like very good student.
I am working. I take 35 $ in a month.
flat - I live with parents. food - too.
to go to the university and back cost 0.3 $
every day
it is 10 $ in a month.
to take in university tea and bun - 0.3 $.
10 $ in a month.
money for internet - 100 $ in a month. if nothing except post - 50 $
but I , like a student, need in information from internet.
I thinking, to speak more - silly.

what will you tell me now ?
American man was tell me - and telling now - take money. Of course, I wasn't take.
But if you will know, How I was want ! ;)
we have proverb. When need come in a door, love is fly away from window.
Russian - he is good too. and, may be, he is better - and, may be, no.
but I will have 100 $ in month and it'll be very good. and if 200, it'll be miracle.
and he 200 $ too.
one room - flat cost 15 000 $.
to live with parents...
all we need in happy. where is it ?
if I only know.

[Jon]

Dear angelin,

You must tell me if $200,000.00 a year is enough? I can't speak for you and what your needs are. Don't look at the money if you can't be happy. Money corrupts. Absolute power is not an absolute. Love is so difficult to quantity, but what are your priorities? What do you want in life? Where do you see the future? With whom? I can't tell you that it won't be a happy life with either man. That's your choice to make.

My question is why do you have to choose between either of these men if you don't love them? You're young and have time to grow up first. Why don't you just date and enjoy your youth? Why are you in a hurry to rush into commitment?

I don't know what papers anyone showed you, but forget about the money. Don't think that money will buy you happiness. Try romance, adventure, personal growth with each person, and find your best friend.

Best friend, that's what it's all about. Once you have found this person it will be an easy decision to marry, have children, and grow old together.

Da!

Jon

[iceman7311979]

I don't know. I live on 4000 a month and have a two bed home with a 2001 ford Ranger.

I have usally about 300$ to 400$ left after bills each pay check.

That is about 600$ to 800$ a month extra. I am by no means rich but I am comfortable.

If my home had two incomes even it one was a part time I am sure I could make it work.

And as for living on food stamps, well ask her if she feels loved.

To me love is more important than any amount of money.

I have been in love (never has it been returned though http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif ) and it is a great and powerful feeling.

When I would come home and see her or talk to her everything just didn't matter anymore. Unfortunatly I have never found a lady who felt the same for me.

Oh well just another reason I am digruntled (favorite word).

[katya]

</span>[QUOTE= (iceman7311979 @ Nov. 02 2002,14:30)]I don't know.

[Jon]

Katya,

So very true. Money and love don't mix. When you start a relationship discussing money, how much you make, how much you have, and how much you love money then it has a tendency distort the reason for meeting someone in the first place. I don't believe (my own experience) the most FSU women marry foreign men for money. I know it's important to discuss this issue at some point, but not at the beginning of a relationship.

It's important (in my opinion) for the woman to understand the quality of life with her new mate. I think that after a period of time it's a subject that should be addressed honestly.

Its a tricky situation and something that should happen when there is a realization that both persons are serious and committed to the relationship. I wish that men from other countries were more honest and open about what FSU can expect.

From my own experiences, I've been acquainted with a few American men who weren't quite truthful about their finances. Its sad that the FSU women had to find out when they arrived in the U.S. that the big house and car was a dream also. This happens on occasion and FSU women should be aware that sometimes what looks like a promising future isn't always the case.

Which brings us back to marriage for love or money?

Jon

[liam]

Holy #### guys, what sorta jobs do you have?????, 6 grand a month!!!!, 4 grand a month!!!!!!!!!!!!, now you've got me real worried, it seems that now i have to compete not only with, looks, personality, charm, wit, experience, class, education and possibly even penis size and on top of all that your all loaded!!!!. Just for the record, 2000NZ$ a month for looking after handicapped children, is anyone gonna ever write to me again??????????????????????????????????.

But I've got a nice personality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

And my mum thinks i'm special.

lol

[katya]

</span><span =''>
you are special. and all people are special.
but everyone will be the special one only for 1 human.
If you helping children , it means that you are good.

[liam]

Katya,

nianeai (??)

liam

[katya]

</span>Katya,

nianeai (??)

liam<span =''>
you are like a child. big and wilful.

[liam]

Katya,

oopsy!!, that was an attempt at saying 'thank-you', (nianeai) in russian.

Liam

[katya]

</span>Katya,

oopsy!!, that was an attempt at saying 'thank-you', (nianeai) in russian.

Liam<span =''>
thank you in russian is * spasibo*

[Canuck]

I registered for this forum because I was moved to write to Angelin to urge her to go to the man she loved; that she should follow her heart instead of his wallet. But I see it is not that easy. Both are good men and the American does not sound obnoxious like the typical stereotype. He sounds caring and sincere. I believe in love very much, but it is a symptom of happiness. That is what we seek. Who makes you happy Angelin? You have met both. When you wake up in the morning, who did you dream about? I suspect it is the younger man who is closer and with you more often. Despite my initial reaction, I would suggest that you invite the American over to live with you for 3 weeks to a month. He is rich enough to certainly invest his time in your relationship. See how he reacts to both good and bad events that affect you both. See what his true nature is and discover if he will make you happy, both now and in 30 years. Give love a chance to prove that he will protect you and care for you. I would also suggest that you do not see your Russian man during this time.

It may be difficult for all three of you, but it should help resolve the issue. I hope the American man will earn your heart and you his. I hope he proves to be kind, unselfish and caring. The romantic part of me is hoping he will win you over. If so, then you can also enjoy the benefits of his better lifestyle. But only then as a bonus. So Angelin, him a chance to be your white knight. Well see is he is a nice guy who makes you deliriously happy. If not then cut it off graciously.
Spasibo

Message for Angelin... I understand your situation, I have been in contact with some ladies from Russia and Ukraine to find a partner. Now I found a nice girl from Latvia. Yes you need to spend more time with the American guy before you can know him properly and make your decision. So I agree that you should arrange this as soon as possible. But don't do this in your home town, it will be difficult and cruel for the Russian man. Maybe take a holiday together in Cyprus or Turkey. Then you will also know how you feel about being apart from the Russian guy, as you have been from the American. And then after that I am sure you will know what you must do. Good luck, da sveedanya!

[STRAWBERRY]

I believe in love in internet, I think, that it exists. And, in my opinion. yes, maybe, love is interesting to real life, but, I am sure, that the love in internet exists also. In real human life it is possible to learn much faster. And in the internet it occurs slowly, step by step (at first, dialogue through internet, e-mail, letters, then ICQ, then bells and a phone conversation, and only then a real meeting.)
Yes, the love in internet exists.

[Vicky]

Not love, STRAWBERRY... infatuation, admiration, but not love. Until you look into his eyes and understand - yes, that's him. And until you wake up one day and he's beside you and you don't want to stifle him with a pillow http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[liam]

G'day,

yeah i tend to agree with vicky a little, though admiration and infactuation are important feelings which make up the all encompassing emotion called love. I think what contact on the internet does though is that it can give quite a good idea of someone, there likes/dislikes, there history, there humour, wishes, hopes and dreams etc etc, so its quite easy to see if generally this person is the sort of person that you'd be interested in. It would be mighty valuable to know a little about someone before you meet, for example when you go for a job interview generally the person has your cv, they have already gauged that you are qualified, experienced for job, but is your personality the right one?, that can only really be done face to face ( sorry, i could'nt think of a more romantic example!!!!)
all in all the main thing for me is that when i eventually go to russia to meet my 'dream-girl' i'll already have built up a relationship with them, i'll have an idea of what they are like, its really just like setting up a pen=pal type of arrangement and seeing if romance naturally develops, (but it really depends on honesty which is very easy to abuse on the net), I could'nt imagine anything else worse than a romance tour where you've never even spoken to the girls before.

cheers liam

[Serge]

</span>G'day,

yeah i tend to agree with vicky a little, though admiration and infactuation are important feelings which make up the all encompassing emotion called love. I think what contact on the internet does though is that it can give quite a good idea of someone, there likes/dislikes, there history, there humour, wishes, hopes and dreams etc etc, so its quite easy to see if generally this person is the sort of person that you'd be interested in. It would be mighty valuable to know a little about someone before you meet, for example when you go for a job interview generally the person has your cv, they have already gauged that you are qualified, experienced for job, but is your personality the right one?, that can only really be done face to face ( sorry, i could'nt think of a more romantic example!!!!)
all in all the main thing for me is that when i eventually go to russia to meet my 'dream-girl' i'll already have built up a relationship with them, i'll have an idea of what they are like, its really just like setting up a pen=pal type of arrangement and seeing if romance naturally develops, (but it really depends on honesty which is very easy to abuse on the net), I could'nt imagine anything else worse than a romance tour where you've never even spoken to the girls before.

cheers liam<span =''>
Hello everyone
I've been at this internet Dating thing far about a year now and frankly I am getting kinda tired of the whole thing. There are simply too many uncertainties and spending three months with someone on a K-1 visa really isn't long eneugh for me anyhow. I think the thing I will do is plan to live in the country for a while sometime in the future.
Question:
I have two children with me ages 9 and 4, both boys. I was wondering what the Russian element of the list thinks of bringing children to Russia fror an extended visit?
I have heard that Russian kids can be really brutal.
Will they be safe?

[Vicky]

Serge,

any kid can be brutal. What do you think of those kids that are taught to kill? Those who go into cafes stuffed with explosives?
Russian kids are not brutal, not at this age at least. And it depends on their parents' status and the upbringing they gave to their child. There are lots of violence among kids in other countries too.
Don't be afraid for your kids. First of all, i'm sure you won't let them go far away without you, for some time at least, until they adapt. Second, i don't think you'll live in near garbage slum, so most probably the surrounding will be friendly. One advice - before going anywhere don't take too many worries with you and don't expect only the worst.
BTW, it depends also on the city you're going to live in.

Best http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Serge]

</span>[QUOTE= (Vicky @ Dec. 03 2002,06:41)]Serge,

any kid can be brutal. What do you think of those kids that are taught to kill? Those who go into cafes stuffed with explosives?
Russian kids are not brutal, not at this age at least. And it depends on their parents' status and the upbringing they gave to their child. There are lots of violence among kids in other countries too.
Don't be afraid for your kids. First of all, i'm sure you won't let them go far away without you, for some time at least, until they adapt. Second, i don't think you'll live in near garbage slum, so most probably the surrounding will be friendly. One advice - before going anywhere don't take too many worries with you and don't expect only the worst.
BTW, it depends also on the city you're going to live in.

Best

[Xutesute]

I really haven't tried for too long but I too am kind of turned off to trying to meet a Russian woman.

I've always been very attracted to them. Where I grew up on Long Island, N.Y. there was a strong Russian community.
Several of my friends married Russian girls, got to them before I could. http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It seems like 80 percent of the Russian girls I talk to are phoney and are just trying to make a living by taking advantage of peoples good nature.

The good side is if your lucky you can make a friend or two and I really enjoy just talking to a Russian person and getting a gist of life in Russia from someone that actually lives there rather than the media which is most often slanted.

"Stifle him with a pillow" LMAO Vicky.

http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Craig.

[angelin]

</span><span =''>
Of course, all Russian kids are really brutal. They are in wool , they are snarl and bite http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
are you understand , what you tell ?

[Serge]

</span>[quote=Serge,Dec. 03 2002,05:15]
Of course, all Russian kids are really brutal.

[Xutesute]

Lol, Angelin.

Maybe if you dressed them in cotton instead of wool they might be better behaved. http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

How about a little vodka in their formula? http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[katya]

</span><span =''>
why vodka ? absolute alcohol;) and from earling childhood. and , so , all russian men are *drinks terreble * http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Vicky]

Serge,

that question you asked is really very important, it's the same question any Russian woman with kids going abroad would have asked herself and others. You might have got that reaction only because of this "stereotyping" http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif If I were you, I would have asked it differently, without those "I heard that" http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif You know there's a saying in Russian, I don't know how to give exact translation of it, coz it's an idiom, but it says that apples are just small apple-tress they grew on. Saying that children are mostly brutal is equal to saying that women who brought them up either were brutal themselves or didn't care about them, and men who were their fathers forgot about them right after the conception day.

[Serge]

</span>Serge,

that question you asked is really very important, it's the same question any Russian woman with kids going abroad would have asked herself and others. You might have got that reaction only because of this "stereotyping" http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif If I were you, I would have asked it differently, without those "I heard that" http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif You know there's a saying in Russian, I don't know how to give exact translation of it, coz it's an idiom, but it says that apples are just small apple-tress they grew on. Saying that children are mostly brutal is equal to saying that women who brought them up either were brutal themselves or didn't care about them, and men who were their fathers forgot about them right after the conception day.<span =''>
Hi Vicky..As a woman I thought that you would understand my concern if I put it another way. I am well aware of the perils of steriotyping and I try not to do this.

The reason this is a concern for me is that the eight year old son of the people that I knew that went to Irkutsk(I might be missing a consonent here...lol) was sodamised while he was there. Needless to say it was a traumatic experience for him and his family. There were also other accounts of brutality as well although not on the same level as the instance above. I recall story of a pissed off Russian who was drunk, at their door with a baseball bat. The mother of this poor boy said to me"men in Russia are raised to be monsters". Yes it is easy to undersand why she would feel this way and I did take take this into account.
If I were the type of person that was so shallow as to "steriotype", surely this would be enough info, my mind would be closed and I could never look apon Russia with the admiration that I have now.

[Serge]

</span>[quote=Xutesute,Dec. 04 2002,22:29]
why vodka ? absolute alcohol;) and from

[liam]

g'day,

i've done heaps of work with physically/sexually abused children and teenagers and the one thing that is plain to me is that abuse, violence etc knows no boundaries of nationality, race, class, or wealth. The sad facts are that about 85% of abused children know there attacker, and that a kid is of at more risk from a family mamber than anyone else.

serge, DO NOT, even for a second think that i'm infering something about you. Because i'm definately not.

cheers, liam.

[katya]

</span>thanks Katya for the advice http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I will have to try Absolute the next time I go ice fishing http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif<span =''>
Hi , Serge!
Of course, you can try to do it, but , interesting , who will caught after it : you will caught fish or fish you ?

[Serge]

</span></span>[QUOTE= (Serge @ Dec. 05 2002,03:37)]thanks Katya for the advice http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I will have to try Absolute the next time I go ice fishing http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif<span =''>
Hi ,

[Jon]

</span></span>[QUOTE= (katya @ Dec. 04 2002,22:58)]</span>[QUOTE= (Xutesute @ Dec. 04 2002,22:29)]<span =''>
why vodka ? absolute alcohol;) and from

[Serge]

</span></span>[QUOTE= (Serge @ Dec. 05 2002,03:37)]</span>[QUOTE= (katya @ Dec. 04 2002,22:58)]</span>[QUOTE= (Xutesute @ Dec. 04 2002,22:29)]<span =''>
why vodka ? absolute alcohol;) and from

[Jon]

</span></span>[QUOTE= (Jon @ Dec. 06 2002,02:28)]</span>[QUOTE= (Serge @ Dec. 05 2002,03:37)]</span>[QUOTE= (katya @ Dec. 04 2002,22:58)]</span>[QUOTE= (Xutesute @ Dec. 04 2002,22:29)]<span =''>
why vodka ? absolute alcohol;) and from

[katya]

</span><span =''>
Jon

[Jon]

</span>[quote=Jon,Dec. 06 2002,02:28]
Jon

[katya]

</span><span =''>
for boy Jonny!
cool ? you can take hot-water bottle; and , you can take dog , that haven't his home . normal temperature of body dog is 39 , it means , that he will hoter , then any girl ;)

[Serge]

</span>[quote=Jon,Dec. 06 2002,20:38]
for boy Jonny!
cool ?

[katya]

</span>Sure Katya....But you still have to it drunk first http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif<span =''>
I was tell to usy dog as hot-water bottle; and nothing more!

[Serge]

</span></span>[QUOTE= (Serge @ Dec. 06 2002,23:55)]Sure Katya....But you still have to it drunk first http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif<span =''>
I

[Jon]

</span></span>[QUOTE= (katya @ Dec. 07 2002,00:41)]</span>[QUOTE= (Serge @ Dec. 06 2002,23:55)]Sure Katya....But you still have to it drunk first http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif<span =''>
I

[Jon]

</span></span>[QUOTE= (Serge @ Dec. 06 2002,23:55)]Sure Katya....But you still have to it drunk first http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif<span =''>
I

[katya]

</span>The last time I used a dog as a hot-water bottle it leaked down my leg...yuck!!

Jon<span =''>
your dog was not right . good right dog's don't do it! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Jon]

</span></span>[QUOTE= (Jon @ Dec. 07 2002,15:08)]The last time I used a dog as a hot-water bottle it leaked down my leg...yuck!!

Jon<span =''>
your dog was not right . good right dog's don't do it! http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[katya]

</span><span =''>
ok , you don't want take dog as pet . what about cat ?

[Jon]

</span>[quote=Jon,Dec. 08 2002,00:00]
ok , you don't want

[Serge]

</span></span>[QUOTE= (Serge @ Dec. 07 2002,08:58)]</span>[QUOTE= (katya @ Dec. 07 2002,00:41)]</span>[QUOTE= (Serge @ Dec. 06 2002,23:55)]Sure Katya....But you still have to it drunk first http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif<span =''>
I

[liam]

g'day serge, when did jon confess to being an alaskan trapper???, you crazy kids have a bizzare sorta life http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif liam

[Serge]

</span>[QUOTE= (liam @ Dec. 08 2002,04:11)]g'day serge, when did jon confess to being an alaskan trapper???, you crazy kids have a bizzare sorta life http://datingtalk.info/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif